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jkirkpleasant
09-17-2007, 03:17 PM
it seems to me that what unites all of humanity is that we have absolutely nothing to do with being born. there's a lot of people who think they get to choose this particular incarnation, and there's some self-direction involved, but i don't think we have anything to do with it. all hatred appears to be based on the idea that we control who we are, or how we were born, or where we are from. if none of us got to choose our parents or circumstances, why would anyone hold it against anyone else? as for me, i don't hate. and i think it's time to check all judgements at the door.

what else unites us?

dwightp
09-17-2007, 03:31 PM
for what it's worth, it seems to me that a great part of our existence is meant to lead towards great and greater unity... eventually breaking down the boundaries of the individual, and some day making meaningless the borders of an objects physicality. beyond that, we are united by our condition... the world should be more conscious of the fact that we are all in this together, sharing the same strange and confusing reality... we're all in this universe together, as opposed to the others who might be in another.

i hope you and i have a chance to talk in person sometime kirk ;)

Mutineer
09-17-2007, 03:49 PM
Hay guiz wuts going on in dis thred?

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 04:28 PM
I object to getting rid of the boundaries of the individual!

dwightp
09-17-2007, 04:36 PM
so do i, but it's really for the best man.

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 04:36 PM
I want to expound but it seems like this is just about color and class? I'll agree we shouldn't care about those at all.

dwightp
09-17-2007, 04:41 PM
oh, well... i hadn't had either in mind. remember, color is only skin deep... and class is even more shallow, dealing as it does only with the quality of clothes and the amount of grime on said skin. go crazy!

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 04:46 PM
no, a world without individual boundaries would be a world would be a world no one would be completely happy with. I get what you are saying, and it's pretty socialistic(probably even communist) and assumes that everyone would be happy with the same things. We shouldn't sacrifice the individual to a social group. The kind of thinking you seem to be inferring would only lead to repression.



Anyway. I keep arguing?

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 04:50 PM
we are inherently flawed, anyway. You'd have to decide that there are absolutes and then you'd have everyone arguing about those. Then you'd either have to resort to divine authority or concede that people can disagree on major issues.

dwightp
09-17-2007, 05:09 PM
no, a world without individual boundaries would be a world would be a world no one would be completely happy with. I get what you are saying, and it's pretty socialistic(probably even communist) and assumes that everyone would be happy with the same things. We shouldn't sacrifice the individual to a social group. The kind of thinking you seem to be inferring would only lead to repression.

I'm an anarcho-communist, which is difficult to explain, so I'll just say yeah, you're right. What I described is something I feel to be an intensely gradual process, that will occur over the entire lifetime of the human race. As we break down nature's influence on our evolution, and increase our own living relationship to artificial constructs (ie, the "conflict for comfort"), I believe the nature of our evolution would shift towards the conscious. Long story short, I think the most positive route for that change to take, would be towards unity, and it being a gradual process across the breadth of the race, would erode the emotions/issues that would make this hypothetical world a place where "no one is entirely happy."

[Edited on 9-18-0707 by dwightp]

Musicalfusion
09-17-2007, 05:15 PM
Soccer is the one thing that unites us...

but there is something bad about that kind of unity, the borgs in star treck were a unified society and look how they turned out.
sorry for the star treck reference but alas i am that nerdy

dwightp
09-17-2007, 05:38 PM
star trek is certainly fun for analogies... but that sort of thing is artificial - i said specifically that what i was describing was gradual, and natural. i think qualifying it as the natural evolution of us as humans differentiates the two... meaning that it's something that we'd be ready and perhaps waiting for.

eggcup
09-17-2007, 05:42 PM
I know Iím always harping about peace, but that could unite us. We can not be united thru justice, because of course justice is subjective, but we can confront each others differences, which are fine to have, peacefully. If peace is a means to and end then the road we travel, what ever road, will be just fine.

pinocchio
09-17-2007, 06:07 PM
there is nothing at all wrong with pushing the idea of absolute peace on people who can't forsee it.

jkirkpleasant
09-17-2007, 06:23 PM
i love the idea that peace unites us! i also don't have any issues with individual boundaries, they're what makes us unique and helps define an otherwise confusing life. in fact, it is our uniqueness that makes evolution possible in this amalgamous human race. (btw, i think the star trek reference is also correct; it wouldn't so cool to be a borg...)
and why would acknowledging that we are united as humans means that no one is entirely happy?

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by dwightp
star trek is certainly fun for analogies... but that sort of thing is artificial - i said specifically that what i was describing was gradual, and natural. i think qualifying it as the natural evolution of us as humans differentiates the two... meaning that it's something that we'd be ready and perhaps waiting for.

It's a scary thought that at some future time we'd be conditioned to accept something we don't want right now.


I think peace isn't a good end. Too many times do we lose the thing we are fighting for because we put it as our number one priority. i.e. enforcing peace by going to war, censoring people who have prejudices.

and, kirk, he was going one more step than inferring that we were united as humans. he was talking about the removal of the individual where we are part of a single will. If we all gave up our own free will, then yes, it would work. This, like he said, would mean a loss of our emotions and issues we face.

Which I guess would solve a lot of problems, but at the cost of our humanity. He suggests that we'd evolve less by nature and more by a clinging to our artificial constructs. It would probably start off by more and more governmental control and slowly ooze into religions and groups. Eventually all the different groups would be the same thing with different names until someone united them all into one religion or something. It's really a scary thought really. But he's suggesting anarcho-communism, my bad. people uniting into a social conscious, becoming lemmings that move for no other reason than it is "The Will" to do it. Why does this all sound like it came out of a scifi movie?

And how can the evolution be natural but based off us clinging to artificial constructs. Surely we'd be tampering with the evolution by introducing these artifical constructs. And whoever runs these constructs would basically run the human race. It wouldn't be very anarcho-communist at all.

i think this collective conscious thing is horrible. It basically means a few people's will broadcast to all. dwight, do we really want to strip ourselves of all that makes us ourselves in order to become some sort of animal?

That's the problem with this concept. We remove our free will and ability to really think on our own, and we become more or less animals. Unity is not a good end in these terms.

Aqualad
09-17-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by pinocchio
there is nothing at all wrong with pushing the idea of absolute peace on people who can't forsee it.

Are you being sarcastic?

dwightp
09-18-2007, 04:16 AM
It's a scary thought that at some future time we'd be conditioned to accept something we don't want right now.

Haha, well man, that's just silly when you think about it. So conversions and changing your mind about where you want to eat some night after someone tells you about a better place are both scary?

Aqualad
09-18-2007, 06:56 AM
That's a bad analogy. I think what you're describing is more like "kissing the gun."

okinomiyaki-sensei
09-18-2007, 07:10 AM
It's hard to say if we're actually coming together or coming apart, but I'd probably argue the latter before the former.

If you think about evolution, we're all descended from some ancestor common to gibbons and orangutans, I think... so I guess it would make sense that one day we're going to be the common ancestor of some other future species, and all of us right now are actually headed in very separate directions...

Sure, globalization means that all surroundings are currently being universalized... but I suppose different people will react differently to the same surroundings-- some will thrive, and others will die out, I guess. As far as we know, it's always been that way, hasn't it??

But who knows... maybe things come together before they come apart. Or maybe we'll not survive and we're just a dead end.

jkirkpleasant
09-18-2007, 07:26 AM
i tend to dissagree with you. look at how much we, as humans, have grown closer together over the past ten or twenty years. we never would have imagined such ease of communication with one another. it seems to me the more we talk and get to know eachother, the more we find we have in common. i'm not saying we're becoming homogenized, only what unites us is stronger than what divides us. of course, each person is completely unique, but we're simultaneously all exactly the same. we all have the same basic structures, skeletons, muscles, organs, systems, etc. but we also all have completely unique genetic makeup, experiences, environments, diets, etc. alls i'm saying is humanity as a whole has some pretty amazing potential as soon as we realize we're all not so totally different from one another. recognizing our unique nature and acknowledging common uniting qualities can only make us stronger and more apt to survival as humans.
btw, i really really love okinomiyaki. my favorite is from osaka, but nagoya's is pretty oishii!

dwightp
09-18-2007, 07:44 AM
That's a bad analogy. I think what you're describing is more like "kissing the gun."

Yeah, but in my construct, it's not a gun man - that's the whole point. If you like, it could be a firework. Hopefully when we start having big parties out in the void, that's all the a-bomb will be useful for.

Does anyone here know the spongebob song about 'fun?' I love plankton's version :) F is for fire burning down the whole town, U is for uranium... bombs! Don't remember N, but I do love that show.

Aqualad
09-18-2007, 07:57 AM
While getting rid of our humanity would get rid of a lot of our gun problems, I think we're missing the point here.

dwightp
09-18-2007, 10:27 AM
While getting rid of our humanity would get rid of a lot of our gun problems, I think we're missing the point here.

Humanity, although an exceptional term for what it represents, narrows the field in which we can conceive of ourselves as a changing... "group." What I'm trying to illustrate though, is the complete embrace of what we mean by humanity... a unity of love, if you will. In any case, I think what I'm describing is too abstract to easily get across here, and I don't want to confuse Kirk's sentiment

In any case, I'd like to think Spongebob unites us... at least a sizable demographic.

Aqualad
09-18-2007, 04:23 PM
love unites us, but we don't all love the same things.

jkirkpleasant
09-18-2007, 09:09 PM
if you take out the 'h' and the 'ma', you get 'unity'. and if you turn around that h and ma, you get mah, which is the first word in mah jong, which unites tons of old chinese guys... love of the music of elephant six unites all the people on this board...
we all have great big hearts pumping blood, and none of us were aborted. o..k... i'm stretching, but you get the idea? no?

Aqualad
09-18-2007, 11:05 PM
Right, but I think if we are really serious about unity, it's going to take something really big to unite us all. Consider the clique, which is formed because certain people like certain things, behave certain ways, enjoy certain things. It's a natural part of life, people being drawn to one another because of their similarities. For instance, a love of elephant 6 or certain types of music. Then expand it further. People are drawn together by things they don't like, such as a bad government or a feeling of isolation and such.

This brings up a good point. Many people are united for a wrong reason or join together in mutual dislike of something else and are wrong for it. Which kinda proves the point that unity isn't an end all. Germany was united under Hitler.

So we need a really good reason to unite.

p.s. I'm all for uniting but I wouldn't want to unite under a vague banner

jkirkpleasant
09-18-2007, 11:28 PM
i think you're getting confused mostly by the concepts of good and bad, right and wrong. i recognize that those dualities exist in physical reality, but i'm saying go beyond good and evil, transcend the dualities that separate right and left, night and day, and find inside yourself a certain wholeness that i think exists in each of us. that wholeness is so utterly compatible with the rest of humanity and the world at large. being whole means uniting what's divided within ourselves first, then we can do nothing else except accept others as equally whole beings. and the planet. and the cosmos. it's really all very cohesive to me.

RaelO
09-19-2007, 01:14 AM
The thing that unites us is death.

We are all mortal, and the only thing we can truly own is now, because for all we know now is all we have. We can band behind different likes, dislikes and experiences, but if we do not live as fully as we can day by day we are wasting what time we have left.

okinomiyaki-sensei
09-19-2007, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by jkirkpleasant
btw, i really really love okinomiyaki. my favorite is from osaka, but nagoya's is pretty oishii!

Hiroshima-yaki is the best, I think... and it comes with noodles! It's famous throughout Japan.

Anyway, I'm not really some kind of master chef or anything, I just picked the name because the kids in my class were just calling me all kinds of funny '-sensei' names one day and that one stuck out because it was the weirdest... and because they were just trying to bug me so I would play with them and not teach!

Anyway, again on the subject of unity I don't really think people are united, or if they are, it doesn't last. It might sound a bit cynical, but I don't really think people will ever be 'united' unless one culture conquers all the others. I mean, it seems that even the 'United' States is pretty divided right now-- politically, economically and socially.

Colonialism is probably the only reason that we have so much in common with people we otherwise wouldn't have so much in common with, and I'm not against people communicating and understanding each other but I am against the idealization of one culture as superior to all the others.

I mean, you can say we're all born and we all die but if that's what unites us then we might as well say we're united with plants, or ants, or something as well... it's not THAT we die, but how we see that death. How we view these things, that's what defines us. Some culture are afraid of death, some are indifferent and some revere it.

I've done some traveling and yes, people are usually pretty open and willing to help out and talk to you when they see that you're traveling, especially when they see you as 'a traveler', and not just some guy on a business trip... and yes, you can share a bond with someone from a different culture, but you don't 'unite' with them in any sense. You just listen to what they have to say, and maybe they listen to what you have to say, and then you move on with a better appreciation of who they are and where they come from.

That bond exists mostly because everyone is curious and interested in the world-- so I suppose that's one thing that brings us together, but it's as two separate beings (or whatever), not as one single being trying to learn more about itself. Well, no... actually, you do learn more about yourself through others, but really that doesn't bring you any closer to anything except yourself... which is important, but it's more like you've just uncovered what was already there as opposed to gaining something new, or becoming a part of something else. You're just changing the way you look at things, but that doesn't mean you're any closer to things than you were before. I don't know though, you become more open to things and maybe you don't make the same mistakes, but I don't think unity is the right way to describe it. Maybe it would be better to say 'harmony'. I think harmony is more important than unity. A peaceful and harmonious co-existence of cultures and identities would be ideal.

Basically, I think everything has its own place in the world, and it's moving in its own direction... and in my experience (I'm not saying I'm the be-all end-all of experience or anything, just saying that this is what I think I've learned from life so far) it's best not to interfere and to just accept things as they are, not try to find any common ground but to just listen and try to understand what people are telling you about themselves.

Well, that's what I think anyway! I should probably shut up now because this post is really long.

[Edited on 9-19-0707 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

[Edited on 9-19-0707 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

JoeJustJoe
09-19-2007, 08:16 AM
I think Aliens need to land en mass to unite the human race.

jkirkpleasant
09-19-2007, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by okinomiyaki-sensei

Originally posted by jkirkpleasant
btw, i really really love okinomiyaki. my favorite is from osaka, but nagoya's is pretty oishii!

Hiroshima-yaki is the best, I think... and it comes with noodles! It's famous throughout Japan.

Anyway, I'm not really some kind of master chef or anything, I just picked the name because the kids in my class were just calling me all kinds of funny '-sensei' names one day and that one stuck out because it was the weirdest... and because they were just trying to bug me so I would play with them and not teach!

Anyway, again on the subject of unity I don't really think people are united, or if they are, it doesn't last. It might sound a bit cynical, but I don't really think people will ever be 'united' unless one culture conquers all the others. I mean, it seems that even the 'United' States is pretty divided right now-- politically, economically and socially.

Colonialism is probably the only reason that we have so much in common with people we otherwise wouldn't have so much in common with, and I'm not against people communicating and understanding each other but I am against the idealization of one culture as superior to all the others.

I mean, you can say we're all born and we all die but if that's what unites us then we might as well say we're united with plants, or ants, or something as well... it's not THAT we die, but how we see that death. How we view these things, that's what defines us. Some culture are afraid of death, some are indifferent and some revere it.

I've done some traveling and yes, people are usually pretty open and willing to help out and talk to you when they see that you're traveling, especially when they see you as 'a traveler', and not just some guy on a business trip... and yes, you can share a bond with someone from a different culture, but you don't 'unite' with them in any sense. You just listen to what they have to say, and maybe they listen to what you have to say, and then you move on with a better appreciation of who they are and where they come from.

That bond exists mostly because everyone is curious and interested in the world-- so I suppose that's one thing that brings us together, but it's as two separate beings (or whatever), not as one single being trying to learn more about itself. Well, no... actually, you do learn more about yourself through others, but really that doesn't bring you any closer to anything except yourself... which is important, but it's more like you've just uncovered what was already there as opposed to gaining something new, or becoming a part of something else. You're just changing the way you look at things, but that doesn't mean you're any closer to things than you were before. I don't know though, you become more open to things and maybe you don't make the same mistakes, but I don't think unity is the right way to describe it. Maybe it would be better to say 'harmony'. I think harmony is more important than unity. A peaceful and harmonious co-existence of cultures and identities would be ideal.

Basically, I think everything has its own place in the world, and it's moving in its own direction... and in my experience (I'm not saying I'm the be-all end-all of experience or anything, just saying that this is what I think I've learned from life so far) it's best not to interfere and to just accept things as they are, not try to find any common ground but to just listen and try to understand what people are telling you about themselves.

Well, that's what I think anyway! I should probably shut up now because this post is really long.

[Edited on 9-19-0707 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

[Edited on 9-19-0707 by okinomiyaki-sensei]

ok, you are right. hiroshima-okinomiyaki is the best. but osaka has the best takoyaki, you've got to admit, although nagoya's is pretty tasty.

i'm afraid i have to disagree regarding a few of your points. while i agree that harmony is a admirable goal, it is only possible because of unity. two keys on a keyboard can only be in harmony or dissonance because they are unified on the keyboard. it seems to me that we are united to plants and ants, etc. why not? yes, we all are born and die and each being serves some purpose in their lifetimes. including a plant or an average ant.

i believe my concept of unity doesn't mean culturally united, or economically, or politically, but rather that there are no 'real' divisions among us anyway. any division you could point out is only an illusion and not real. a corporation, for instance, is a non-reality. it doesn't live and die. i would presume that an ant or plant has greater power in it's own existence than a government, or a monetary system. those things we give power, but they don't actually exist, in that there is no life in them. no heartbeat. no pulse. nothing. we, the people who have personal power, bestow our own inherant power to make them even possible at all, but they are as fleeting as an idea or a dream. what unites humankind and indeed all life, is that we live. we breath, we dream, we conquor, we are victims, we suffer, and we are all together at once. in one place. at one time.

that's all i've got to say. my daughter just woke up from her nap. ;-)

Aqualad
09-19-2007, 04:20 PM
I agree. Civilization as a whole is unimportant compared to the life of one human being. This is assuming there is a spiritual side of life. If not, then it's mere coincidence that we are all together at this one time and we haven't gone beyond good and evil(I seriously doubt we would want to meet someone who was), it simply doesn't exist.

And I think the kind of unity you're talking about isn't tangible enough to bring us together. It's true, but it's also very vague. Just think, the same unity holding you and I together holds me and the ant that bit me this afternoon together!

vertiginous
09-19-2007, 04:37 PM
http://xkcd.com/291/

birdman
09-20-2007, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Aqualad
Right, but I think if we are really serious about unity, it's going to take something really big to unite us all. Consider the clique, which is formed because certain people like certain things, behave certain ways, enjoy certain things. It's a natural part of life, people being drawn to one another because of their similarities. For instance, a love of elephant 6 or certain types of music. Then expand it further. People are drawn together by things they don't like, such as a bad government or a feeling of isolation and such.

This brings up a good point. Many people are united for a wrong reason or join together in mutual dislike of something else and are wrong for it. Which kinda proves the point that unity isn't an end all. Germany was united under Hitler.

So we need a really good reason to unite.

p.s. I'm all for uniting but I wouldn't want to unite under a vague banner

Hilter, a flim from germany.
http://www.syberberg.de/Syberberg2/Hitler_full_eng_QT2.html